That’s all for Mike Mussina
Happy trails to you, Mike Mussina.
As expected, Mike Mussina has officially announced his retirement. The right-hander will walk away with 270 Major League victories, his first and only 20-win season tucked into his back pocket. The Yankees will hold a 4 p.m. conference call so Mussina can discuss his decision.
Here’s a story from last night on Mussina’s pending retirement. This quote from September, on the eve of Mussina’s 20th win, seems appropriate:
“This year has been so easy, as far as health and going out there and
having fun pitching,” Mussina said. “The months are just flying by. You
have to sit down and remember that at 40 years old — things aren’t
going to be getting better. They’re going to be getting tougher. Then
you have to decide if that’s a challenge you want to face.”
Here’s what Joe Girardi had to say last night at the Grand Central Oyster Bar, where he was a guest of honor at a dinner to benefit Alzheimer’s research:
“He had led me to believe that that’s what was going to happen at the
end of the year,” Girardi said. “I wasn’t quite sure, in a sense, that
I believed him. Sometimes when you get away from it, you really miss
it, and your family might encourage you to go. But I know he talked
about wanting to be home more, and if he does, I won’t be surprised.”
Bryan Hoch
Although there were times that I criticized Mussina over the years I have to say I appreciated his effort, his competiveness and his professionalism while a Yankee. Good luck to you Mr. Mussina and hope to see you go into Cooperstown wearing an NY hat.
Matt,
From the other blog, perhaps you MISSED the tongue planted firmly in cheek with my followup “guarantees”??
As for Moose, you talk about hitters? Roger Maris. 11 year patently unspectacular career. .260 ba. 275 homers. Had one stat: 61. Elected. I’ll never say one disparaging word about Maris. Cal Ripken. Career .276 batter with a couple MVP awards and a ring with the O’s. Could hit homers but never did so spectaularly, never lead a season and is 38th currently on the career list but will be passed by many in years to come. Elected not because his career was well above the league average but becuase he was NOTHING if not consistent. Moose’s achievements are over a 19 year career, CAREER LONG. Pedro may have more overall wins but he’s had some tanked seasons as well and his career has sputtered over the last few seasons. What if Mo doens’t blow that save in 2003 and Moose has a ring? Would that make a difference? Let me point you to HOF players who don’t have rings. Look at what Moose did over the WHOLE career, the era in which he pitched, the division in which he pitched, the team he pitched for. If Moose doesn’t ever get elected he will be the last of his generation not to.
We can only hope that any free agents who arrive this season work out as well as Mussina did. Thanks Moose…if he does make Cooperstown the Yankees or Orioles debate could be pretty difficult
Thanks for everything Moose! My opinion doesn’t matter, so I won’t give it (again). He is and was a class act for the Yankees and Orioles. Good luck to you Mike!
Mike Mussina had a Stanford education and “had so many pitches and knew how to use them” (should be sung to the tune of “My Baby Loves Love”).
In this last year I could see that Mussina was just really learning how to throw junk, junk, and more junk up there.
If the batter thought that he knew Mike Mussina, he knew the old Mike Mussina. This guy seemed to come with more pitches, more arm angles, and he just plain out thought the hitter.
Mike, we wish you the best in retirement. Spend many happy days with your family but know that you will be missed.
The Yanks need to now go for three, three starters that is.
- Rick O
Mussina=HOF for me too. Won 20 games for a mediocre team (at best) in 2008. Certainly the best FA starter ever signed by Cashman. And the near perfect game at Fenway in 2001(?) was one of the best pitched games ever, broken up by Carl Everett, a journeyman outfielder. Second best was the perfect relief effort of Clemens in ALCS game 7 in 2003 completely shutting the RSox down.
Here’s a laugh for all. Betemit to challenge Fields for starter at 3B on ChiSox:
Report: Sox reach agreement with Viciedo
http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/11/report_sox_reach_agreement_wit.html
haha If Betemit isn’t completely useless, I’ll probably implode.
Hmm not sure I agree with you pgarrett. “Mussina retired as one of just 18 pitchers in Major League history to own a career record of at least 115 games over .500 (270-153). twelve of those pitchers are currently in the Hall of Fame, five are not eligible yet (Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez and Mussina”
Mussina’s .638 career winning percentage is sixth-best all-time among Major Leaguers with at least 500 career starts and ranked second among active pitchers (Randy Johnson-.648
He did all of this in the AL East supposedly clean throughout the steroid era. How decent would Mussina’s stats been if he’d of pitched the NL in the 80s? Sure he’s not a first/second/maybe even third ballot choice because of the other names he’ll likely be in consideration with Clemens, Maddux, Schilling on his first year up for selection with the likes of Smoltz, Glavine, Pedro to follow but if he doesn’t make the HOF in my mind he’ll be the greatest pitcher never to. You’ve got to factor in that he could have kept pitching on and on like Glavine and Johnson with declining effectiveness just to get over the 300 wins plateau
More support for Mussina in the HOF:
Should the Moose make the Hall?
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/11/21/should-the-moose-make-the-hall/
Yankees make some roster moves
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/11/20/yankees-make-some-roster-moves-2/
Here’s a sure fire way not to land the most coveted pitcher of this FA class….put a time table on the offer. “Hal Steinbrenner wants the free-agent left-hander to know that he’s on the clock. ” Does this guy share baseball/business sense w/ Cashman? CC can choose any team he wants for as little coin as he wants. Watch him low-ball the Yanks & sign in Bean-town. Really smart Shallow Hal.
Matt,
The fact is, you are only looking at absolutes when Moose (who at 270 wins has an absolute there) other achievements. I think the strongest case is these:
The “Gray Ink” test gives a player points on based on where he finishes in the top 10 in his league in ERA, wins, strikeouts, innings pitched, win-loss percentage, saves, complete games, walks per nine innings and hits per nine innings.
Moose has 244 such points. The average Hall of Fame pitcher has 185. Based on his career statistics, Mussina compares favorably to guys like Juan Marichal, Jim Palmer, Curt Schilling and Carl Hubbell
…
Over 3,562.2 career innings, he threw only 71 wild pitches, hit only 60 batters, had one (one!) balk and walked only 785.
…
and lastly:
Mussina is one of 25 pitchers to have won 270 games since 1900. Only five – Lefty Grove, Christy Mathewson, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson and Grover Cleveland Alexander – have a higher winning percentage than Mussina’s .638. That’s not company you can ignore.
How many pitchers have come and gone in 108 years of baseball? Thousands? And Moose is one of only 25 to post that many wins and of those he is in the top 5 in overall winning percentage (another absolute that you can’t ignore.) Those aren’t “average” achievements. We’re not talking about comparing with other “average” players here. He compares favorably with the BEST to ever play the game. Like Abraham says, it’s no accident. He didn’t just benefit from TIHS luck.
And I don’t care what you say, blowing off the fact that he pitched in the toughest division in baseball, in the toughest league in baseball, in the steroid era against teams that won 8 of the 18 World Series’ in his career is one of those achievements that doesn’t show up in absolute numbers. There isn’t 1 other pitcher not named Roger Clemens who spent most of his career in the AL East who achieved as much. Andy Pettitte has spent MOST of his career in the AL East but with a 14 year career and 215 wins, will need atleast 4 more productive years to win as many as Moose. Will that happen? I don’t think so at 36 years old, maybe 2 good years left but who knows? I think HE will be more debatable. But what if he blows thru two more seasons going like 17-5 for both?
oops… hit submit.
What if he goes 17-5 both seasons? Finishes his career with a 249-137 record, maybe finishing in the top 10 in CY? .645 winning pct? I think OVERALL I’d maybe have more difficulty making the case. Both Moose and Andy finished a season LEADING the AL in wins and didn’t win the CY. 1995 (AND 1996) Moose finished and lead the AL with 19 wins (vs 9 losses and a 3.2 era) but Unit won the CY with an 18-2 2.4 record. Moose finished 5th that year. In 1996, he finished 5th when Pat Hentgen went 20-10 (Andy went 21-8 and finished 2nd). Pat Hentgen? He won a CY, He’s got a ring and a 20 win season. Does anyone here think he’s HOF bound?? By 2000 Hentgen was about done. In 2000 Moose had his ONLY losing season of his career when he went 11-15 and he STILL finished 6th in CY voting!! The closest Moose came was in 1999 when he finished 2nd to Pedro (likely a HOF’er). Moose has played and succeeded and dominated in rareified air his WHOLE CAREER. THAT is what the HOF is about. Not about striking gold once (Hentgen).
Mussina will be a HOF, let me tell you why, stat freaks. He pitched in the AL… his w h o l e career. He’s 115 points over .500 in his lifetime win percentage. He has 270 career wins… ALL in the AL. He came won 20 games once, won 19 games a bunch of times ( oh, that’s nothing ) and has always been in DOUBLE DIGITS baby, in wins. He pitched in the steroid era while doing this and, most of all, HE WAS A YANKEE while doing it. You know what’s even more amazing? Moose was never a strikeout pitcher! He had to use finesse and control and smarts to get hitters out, because he was never a Joba Chamberlain. Mussina was a pitcher. He won’t be a first ballot, because that ballot includes guys like Pedro and Clemens, and those two right there are enough to dwarf him, because of how great they were. But to say Moose is not a HOFer? To say that he was only ” good “? Forget all the accolades. It’s because we’re having his conversation that makes him great. Despite not having a ring, or a CY or any of those accolades. He’ll get into the hall of fame because he was the ony pitcher to do everything he did without all the shine; He walked out on top. Clemens will forever have a cloud over his legacy, Curt Schilling is practically begging teams to sign him, and Pedro can barely walk these days, think about that for a minute.
That’s it, that’s all.
Please stop hating Oakland, Moose will get in for reasons Gammons listed. Primarily 10 years in Baltimore, a hitters friendly park and team that he won more games than any other pitcher.
Although, Oakland would probably cite Cal Ripken for Moose’s success in BMore.
Steven A Smith: “Knicks deals give them the cap to sign Wade and Lebron, its no coincidence they will be free agents at the same time”.
CONGRATS TO IRON MIKE MUSSINAS A FUTURE HALL OF FAMER AND NO LONG CALLED MESSINA BY OAKLAND.
Can someone explain why the RedSox want Texeira?
Sure, 2 points…Mike Lowell is hurt, some wonder if he will come back. Also, some rumors have the Red Sox moving Ortiz before his body falls apart.
Actually 3 points: to keep him away from us. Much as they did getting involved in Santana bidding.
On the Knicks: we had a 7 man roster tonight, Marbury should have played.
My guess is despite what Jalen Rose says, we will sign Stoudamire because he played for our coach. Shaq is a longshot but he could come home. NJ, Orlando and LA are more likely for Shaq.
Oh thanks man just needed to know………….. Why can’t they just disapear or something?
Well Jason Bay isn’t Manny and although they have a good pitching staff, they could have some initial decline.
Thats another thing they want Burnett too
Let em have him. I’d rather sign Pettitte for 1-2 than Burnett for 4-5. I’ll take Volquez or someone in the next couple. I am not willing to tie mega years on Pavano 2.0
On that note youre right but what if he saty healthy and its with them?
I don’t like the Cy Young and awards argument. While it is worth something no doubt, it’s ridiculous because only one person can win it, and its not earned on the field, it’s ‘awarded’ by someone who’s doing so based on opinion. We can sit here and argue MVP awardees to the guys that were up for it, but to then turn around and say that in ten or however many years that this or that guys isn’t hall worthy because he didn’t win it, is ridiculous. To sit and say that the only people that are worthy are the ten guys that win in five years (AL and NL) may or may not actually be CORRECT. Schilling was majority career NL’er and to say his body of work (the new buzz term it seems) is that much better than Moose’s because he was in the NL while Moose was slaving in the AL doesn’t seem to give him his proper due. To assign worthiness for such things as Rings is ridiculous too, only one team can win. Maybe I don’t see things the way some of you do, but to argue that pitchers of the near future are going to drawf Moose’s numbers is insane. We may never see another 300 game winner, within two seasons Moose’s average would’ve gotten him there. No, I doubt we see a great deal of pitchers doing what he’s done with similar builds and pitching styles. In the respect of some of the supposed grading points it seems to me to be ridiculous because they rely SO much on the team outcome, when it should be more about individual performance and performance in comparison to one’s peers in the era they’ve pitched or played. To mee, in that respect, Moose at the very least is a serious consideration. Why should it be a pitchers detriment to the hall when it takes a complete team effort to win the Series for instance. Cal didn’t do it himself… no one does, so to argue that is rather silly to me. Even for Johnson and Schilling in the year they beat us starting almost every damn game, it still took the Arizona offense’s part to win, the team effort. To say a pitcher must have these things and grade that higher than his personal body of work over his career does not make sense to me. Maybe you can argue that in the NBA, but not in MLB or the NFL… too many players for that to be legitimate.
Have your own opinion, that’s cool, but that’s mine.
Knuteroc, I agree with you 100%. And Matt has made my point about comparing Moose to those old names. He’s right, pitchers today ARENT used the same way. Namely the number of wins, saying 300 is the “magic” number. In the 4-man rotation era when pitchers started 40+ games a year maybe. But in the 5-man era, it just doesn’t happen with starts averaging maybe 31 or 32. And you’re right, the CY is “voted” on, not won on the field of play. It is an indication of a single season, not a career (Hentgen again).
Yea I agree too. It takes a team to win. Does that mean in the 2001 world series, if Rivera had not blown game 7, Matt you would think Moose was a HOFer? That was his closest shot at a ring. I don’t think you could justify saying Moose isn’t a hall of famer because he never won a world series. He was 1 inning away from doing so.
moose is hall bound. the biggest monkey off his back was the 20 wins in a season, and now he has it.
Results of Pete Abraham’s poll
TAKE THE POLL: Should Mike Mussina be elected to the Hall of Fame?
Yes 1802-88% of all votes
No 122-6% of all votes
I’m not sure yet 113-6% of all votes
Total Votes: 2037
Matt,PG,King,
You have a lot of catching up to do. Each of you must vote another 500 times!!!
Is Mike Mussina really bothered about the HOF or do you think he already considers his achievements a worthy ticket? You look at his stats and think even if he’d pitched for 2 below average years he’d get to 3000 SO. He’s retired on 2813 and managed 91 even in his dismal 07. Moose could have easily cemented his credentials, yet chose not to. I would guess for some people that will raise him in their evaluations and for others it might seem as if he doesn’t care about the game etc
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-081121-cc-sabathia-new-york-yankees-rogers,0,1783672.column
The Susuki-Bean-Florida GM theory is that if you trade away all major leaguers except: Cabrera, Duncan, Kennadia and Britton; You will win a WS in by 2020.
Meaningwhile, Rumblings have us putting Hughes in the rotation and Joba in the pen based on Hughes’s winter work.
Please stop hating Oakland, Moose will get in for reasons Gammons listed. Primarily 10 years in Baltimore, a hitters friendly park and team that he won more games than any other pitcher.
By bpark23@gmail.com on November 21, 2008 10:21 PM
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Although, Oakland would probably cite Cal Ripken for Moose’s success in BMore.
By bpark23@gmail.com on November 21, 2008 10:22 PM
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Steven A Smith: “Knicks deals give them the cap to sign Wade and Lebron, its no coincidence they will be free agents at the same time”.
By bpark23@gmail.com on November 21, 2008 10:23 PM
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CONGRATS TO IRON MIKE MUSSINAS A FUTURE HALL OF FAMER AND NO LONG CALLED MESSINA BY OAKLAND.
OAKLAND = SUSUKI.
Well if do not land a starting pitcher that would leave us with Joba, Wang and Hughes. We could then re-sign Pettitte and try to change Moose’s mind. That rotation could get us to playoffs but if we have to use Kennadia we’re done.
Well the poll agrees with Gammons who is as anti Yankees as they come.
Oh and Gammons will vote on Mussina.
Golf, don’t waste your time, he’s an Oakland fan.
The same guy who said Moose was done last year and called him Messina, now says Moose is not a HOF and now says Pettitte is done, wrong everytime.
Matt,
You just don’t know when to quit arguing do you? The big problem is…..we won’t know until at least 5 years from now, and it’s not likely a first ballot choice. But 10 (+ or -)years down the road… when there are no clear cut candidates……? And will Mussina be heartbroken if not? Hell NO.
The notion that Derek Lowe is better than Andy Pettitte is plain rediculous. Forget NL stats, Pettitte had solid NL stats too. The reality is that Pettitte would be our game 1 playoff starter right now over Wang unless CC signs and I would be way more confident with Pettitte facing an elite pitcher in a playoff game than Lowe.
http://yankeesredsox.com/blog/2008/11/a_much_better_plan.html
This guy gets it. Committing to garbage long term will hurt us down the road.
i love when people act all tough on the internet. very 1st grade-ish
it seems things can’t seem to fall right for the Yanks…when one players clicks right others fall apart…when the Yankks have money and alot of free slots to fill free agents don’t want to come…and now after Moose’s best season…
instead of him comming back he’s retiring…
you would figure since he’s a finesse pitcher he could probably do what he did last…and if the Yanks add a couple top tier pitchers…he could pitch 4th or 5th in the rotation and have an even greater chance to win alot of games…
but he chose otherwise…
Interesting…so many things have to fall in line for team to win a World Series…
when will the stars line up for the Yanks…
Hmmmmmmmmm….?????
put Moose in the HOF…he pitched in the AL east in the steroid era…that says it all
bpark,
Aren’t you same fool who wants every old player on this team like Wells, Clemens, Sheffield, Cameron? Talk about being wrong every time
Next thing we know you’ll be wanting Babe Ruth. What a fool!!
By pgarrett@aol.com on November 22, 2008 8:49 PM
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Not a personal opinion Susuki’s alias, thats from the Yankees perspective.
Well, if you thought the odds of CC being a Yankee were slim, they’re even slimmer now; Chad Billingsley has fractured his fibula, this will do nothing if not fuel the Dodgers to go after CC now. Hey, let’s not forget that CC is just one of the big-name pitchers out there, granted, he is the best. He’s an ace, has no injury history and is a great teammate and athlete, but it is what it is. We’ll see what happens when we’re feasting on turkey by Thanksgiving , which is the reported date in which he’ll make a decision. I’m still pulling for him to be a Yankee… for now.
Though Billingsley is expected to be ready for ST, so that’s a plus. But setbacks can occur. Meanwhile, Texeira has said he has an East Coast preference and wants to have a job by christmas. Hopefully it’ll be in the Bronx, I just hope Cashman doesn’t fall asleep on this one and lets him slip away to a team like Boston. Their lineup is already sick, and unlike us, already have a good rotation.
If we miss out on Sab, guys like Sheets, O Perez, Lowe, Brad Penny, Garland and Peavy would be in our sights, with a strong interest in Mark Teixeira. I guess Sab truely is the dictator of this year’s FA period… motherflubba. SIGN ALREADY! As for Burn-you-with-five-years-ett, we’re not signing him. He wants a gauranteed fifth year and we will not offer him that. He’ll have a good salary at four years, but that’s it. Lowe may just be looking for the highest bidder between us and Boston.
Another 2 of Matthew SuckSaiki’s alias along with nystreets.
Funny you bring up Pedro, He was still a better choice than Pavano at that time.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster&univLogin02=stateChanged&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fname%3dolney_buster%26univLogin02%3dstateChanged
Lebron trying sell NY to Sabathia
I’m convinced Sab is using us as leverage. It’s become clear to me his main goal is to try to land on the West Coast or somewhere on an NL contender, where he can hit. If no teams come close to the Yankee offer, THAN he’ll sign with us, but it’s obvious that after sitting on a six year- 140 million dollar contract offer for ten days that you obviously do not intend or prefer to sign with that and are just using those figures as leverage. What’s there to think about? NO WAY is he STILL ” thinking ” about it; My BEHIND! His butt will be eating turkey and still ” thinking about it “. I hope the Yanks aren’t stupid enough to get washed like Houston was in 2004, when they waited and waited on Beltran only to lose him to the Mets. By that time, Teix, Manny and every other fallback options may have new jerseys. Hal better be true his word when he says that the deal won’t be out there forever. BE SMART!
Bronxkidd,
I agree with you. CC is simply waiting it out. Playing chicken with the MLB. He’s waiting for other offers. Other teams are waiting to see if he’ll turn down the Yankees’ offer. They are waiting to see if the Yankees will pull their offer. Yep, just a big game of chicken…..
Well, I’m sorry Matt, but if the guy is playing baseba for his family, than he shouldn’t be playing at all. His family has to move to where ever he moves, case and point. Whether that’s Anaheim, or Los Angeles or New York or China. His family won’t get him championship, so I don’t buy into that. Besides, he’ll be secure for another six years anywhere he signs, it’s not like he’ll be moving or get traded somewhere any hoot. The guy is just plain dead set on signing with someone else.
“Well, I’m sorry Matt, but if the guy is playing baseba for his family, than he shouldn’t be playing at all” thats like saying if a guy is working for his family he shouldn’t be working at all. He has a responsibility to has family #1 not Yankee fans or any fans. The guy is making a huge decision in his life, where he is going to live for the next 6 years, because as you stated once he signs unless something goes horribly wrong he’s there for the duration, maybe more of his contract. There’s a lot more to this decision than dollar bills, he has to take care of his family and himself above all, and if that means taking a pay cut (what’s a couple million when you’re set to make 100+ over the next 4-6 years?) to do what’s right for himself and his family than he made the responsible decision. Because as many have stated if it were simply about getting paid he would have signed after a couple of days when nobody threw an offer topping ours.