The clock continues to tick
Every few days, there’s something of a stakeout outside Legends Field in Tampa. Actually, it’s usually just one reporter from the Associated Press, and these days, it’s often called into action when Hank Steinbrenner hasn’t returned telephone calls for a day or so.
The stakeout was in effect and it worked late Friday, as an AP reporter caught up with Hank on his way home from the office. Steinbrenner went into a little bit more detail on the Johan Santana situation, revealing that though he’s one of the major forces pushing for the trade, there are voices of dissent (Hal Steinbrenner? Brian Cashman?) within the team hierarchy.
At least we know that Hank "won’t be crying" if the Yankees don’t pull off the Santana deal — that courtesy of his telephone interview with the New York Daily News earlier in the week. Personally speaking, I have to think the Yankees are in this until the moment we all spot Santana at another team’s podium.
It’s beyond the point of handicapping when a Santana trade is going to happen or to whom (didn’t we all think the Red Sox were a done deal on Dec. 6?), but if the Twins wanted to come up with the big extension, something tells me they would have done it already. They’ve certainly got the cash reserves.
In other news, this could be — and probably should be — Goose Gossage’s final year on the Hall of Fame ballot before gaining admittance to Cooperstown. Good luck to Andy Phillips, who has latched on with the Cincinnati Reds and could be in the mix for their first base job.
Bryan Hoch
I hope Phillips succeeds, but he probably won’t be much more than a bench option at first base. There is already a logjam with Hatteberg and Votto, fortunately for Phillips they are both left handed hitters. But unfortunately for Phillips is that he has been miserable against LH pitching in his career.
http://statisticianmagician.mlblogs.com/
HankBrenner “thinks out loud” and talks to the press too much. If the Yanks are to trade for Santana, they should do it stealthily like Cashman did for A-Rod.
Again, I oppose this trade (plus extention). The Yanks seriously need a “youth movement” on the mound and over the next few years in the outfield.
It is not just a matter of Hughes (Baseball America’s top rated pitching prospect in all of MLB in 2007) for Santana, but also starting 23 yo CF Cabrera and two other top prospects (Marquez [BA's # 7 Yanks' 2008 prospect] or Horne [BA #5] PLUS Jackson [BA 2008 # 2] or Tabata [BA # 3]).
Plus then pay Santana to waive a no trade clause, 6 – 7 years at $20 – $25 per? The BoSox would never do that, paying Johan twice Beckett. And, no one else has the players to pay the 4 for 1 “king’s ransom” that the Twinks are seeking. He will spend the season with Minn and then be available as a “pay once” Free Agent for 2009.
Note also, before selling the Farm for Santana, that while he was known for being “lights out” virtually unbeatable it the second half 2004-06, that in 2007 post All-Star break 15 starts he was 5 – 7 with an ERA over 4.00. “Red Flag!!!!”
why not try to trade for Paul Konerko. He’s a decent first basemen who has the potential to hit for more than 30 dingers. Plus, he grew up as a yankee fan.
Another Angels-ChiSox swap?
Paul Konerko | White Sox
The Angels and White Sox pulled off a significant deal in November (Orlando Cabrera for Jon Garland), and now the two teams are discussing another big one, the Los Angeles Daily News reports.
According to the newspaper, Los Angeles would get 1B/DH Paul Konerko; Howie Kendrick, Ervin Santana and Chone Figgins are possible candidates to head to Chicago.
WE’LL TAKE ERVIN FOR GIAMBI.
WE’LL TAKE FIGGINS ALSO FOR GIAMBI OR BETEMIT.
We are now offering an alternate package 5 players not including Hughes. I don’t know the players involved but it likely starts with Cabrera and Kennedy.
Enough Santana already…stay in it to make sure Boston doesn’t get away with murder here, but I don’t want to trade for Santana.
bpark, I’m glad to see that the Yanks are trying to keep Hughes off of the table, I’d much rather see Kennedy go than Hughes. But we still have the problem of a hole in CF if Melky leaves. We don’t have any viable internal options, all of which are either too old to play the position as well as Melky, or are simply not yet major league ready (Jackson, Gardner). And there are no good FA options.
So what, do we sacrifice more of our future to get a center fielder? Then extend him too? Its too much. Our rotation isn’t what the problem is, the two biggest problems are the bullpen and first base!
I’d love to see some Yankee buzz regarding those areas, but no, we are too busy trying to create more holes than we already have by getting Johan.
bpark, what is your source?
Kennedy would be more acceptable than Hughes (although he was Minor League Baseball, Milb.com 2007 pitcher of year). Baseball America projects Hughes as a defanite, the top rated, potential # 1, with Kennedy as a # 3 – 4 (yet his ERA was under 2.00 in rocketing from A to Majors in 2007)
Without Cabrera in CFm you are left with Damon, with Gradner as a late inning caddie.
If either Jackson or Tabrera are included, it hurts too much…with Abreu contract up in 2008 and both Damon and Matsui contract up in 2009.
Either Matsui or Abreu may hang on as a DH. But if not OF of Cabrera, Jackson and Tabrera, who?
amire, re 1B, after 2008m Teixeria will be a FA. 29 yo power switch hitting and gold glove fielding 1B.
Plus after 2008, Yanks will shed salaries of Giambi ($23 M), Mussina $12 M) and Farensworth ($ 5 M) = $40 M. Plus also possibly Pettite and Abreu at $16 M each = $72 M off annual books.
Oh yes, that seemed too low, after 2008, Yanks will also shed the $10 wasted on the Pavano fiasco.
So, $50 to $82 Million off the annual payroll books after 2008 for potential FAs Teixieria and perhaps then Sanatna (or Sabathia).
Just a follow-up regarding a comment [about one of my comments] I viewed late last night from the post: “Hot Stove: Still Pondering Johan”…
rcngolf99, I agree!
The Yankees need more lefthanded pitchers on their pitching staff; and, Johan Santana would be a great addition to our starting rotation!
On my list, “Reasons why the Yankees should bring Santana to New York”…I did note:
#1 He is a lefthanded Starter
#2 He’s one of the five best pitchers in the game – today.
But, the point I was making, is that: This whole possible trade for Santana is dragging on way too long!!!
Obviously, the Twins want more than the Yankees are willing to give up; and, I really don’t think the Yankees should trade Hughes or Melky in any deal!…
Both are part of a very special “chemistry” on this team…along with Joba, Cano, Abreu, Duncan, Kennedy, etc., as well as, all the other young kids on the horizon who bring a great enthusiasm to the Yankees, which is such an important “intangible dynamic force” found on all winning teams!
It’s a similar intangible quality that the great Championship Yankee Teams of the late 1990′s had, with: Jeter, Bernie, Mariano, Posada, etc….Hopefully, the young players of today, will be as successful! The Yankees need to give them all a chance to prove they are winning ballplayers!
Overall, what I am saying [at this point], is that it would be great to get Santana as a Free Agent, so we don’t have to give-up any players for him [like the re-signing of A-Rod. If the Yankees didn't re-sign A-Rod, we would have had to give-up many good young players in a trade for another All-Star third baseman]…So, the longer this whole process goes on, the more control Santana has in deciding what team he wants to go to. If he is not traded before spring training, I think Johan Santana will not agree to a trade this year, and will wait and see what free agency will bring him in 2009! Then his first choice will be the Yankees [as it is now!].
Of course, this whole theory goes by the wayside if it looks like the Red Sox may be ready to agree to a deal for Santana…Then, the Yankees must make every effort to put together a package that will bring Santana to New York in a trade which will keep Santana from signing with Boston. [this is the #3 reason on my list - which I think is the most important reason]!…
The best result to end all the drama surrounding a possible Johan Santana trade, would be for the Minnesota Twins to sign Santana to a long-term deal…This way, if the Yankees don’t get Santana, at least, the Red Sox will not get Santana either!
If that’s the case, the Yankees and Red Sox starting rotations will look like this [next year]…
Yankees: Wang – Pettitte – Joba – Hughes – Kennedy – Mussina
Red Sox: Beckett – Dice-K – Buhholz – Schilling – Lester – Wakefield
I think the Yankees Starting Rotation is better…and, in my view, will lead the Yankees to their 27th World Championship in 2008!
But, it will be a very exciting and close race all year!
In the end, it will be…
Yankees win!…the Yankees win!!!
Jimmy27NYY
Think Spring!
http://baseballtheyankeesandlife.mlblogs.com/
Jimmy, I agree about the chemistry. I think that is an important fact that is frequently overlooked. These young guys gave us such a boost last year when they were called up…why trade them away?
Although I disagree with the notion that we need to get Santana to keep him away from the Red Sox. If the Sox want to trade away a bunch of young talent and make that gamble, I say let him.
I’m not interested in trading away so much talent for 1 guy. One guy that guarantees NOTHING for next season.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/01/06/2008-01-06_owners_should_think_twice_before_signing.html
Give that a read. You pro-Santana-trade guys don’t seem to mention the risk of a 6-7 year contract.
Also, on the second page…I didn’t realize Santana’s numbers at Fenway were so awful! 1-3, 6.89 ERA? Why would Santana want to waive his no trade clause to go there?
Whereas Santana is 2-0 with a 1.29 ERA over the last 3 years at Yankee Stadium. You can’t tell me Santana isn’t aware of that discrepancy.
Bullpen please! Our biggest hole is unfilled and yet we are wasting our time trying to pry Santana from the Twins. It’s no coincidence that the strongest dynasty in recent history was a Yankee team built during an era where the Boss was sent out of the game. we stopped trading the future and look what we built. Now Hank has to be shown that.
jlemoine,
Great article by Bill Madden. Thanks for including it in your comments…
Madden brings up many good points, especially the fact that most long-term deals for starting pitchers have been failures. One of the few exceptions [which Madden points out in his article] is Mike Mussina’s 6-year, $88.5 Million deal with the Yankees, which is one of the very few long-term deals that has worked-out, and was worth the money [as compared to so many other disasters]…such as Yankee disappointments: Don Gullett, Kevin Brown – both mentioned by Madden – and, lets not forget about the “American Idle” Carl Pavano (who is still owed $12 Million this year, and will not pitch a game)!
So, as Yankee fans, we should give a little more credit and respect to Mike Mussina for all his efforts over the last few years! [and, I do expect Mussina to have a solid year in 2008]….
Also, Santana’s stats are very interesting to consider…He is 1-3 with a 6.89 ERA at Fenway, but much better at Yankee Stadium. The numbers are a limited sample, but have to be considered!…
One other thought…
Maybe we need to listen to Cashman and Hal Steinbrenner a little more [regarding the Santana deal]…It seems though, “the length of the contract” is more of an issue, than, “the amount of money” that it will take to sign Santana!…
The clock is ticking! I think if this deal doesn’t get done before spring training, Santana will play out his final year on his contract in Minnesota…and, will then “test the waters” in free agency in 2009!
For now, I like the Yankees projected Starting Rotation, for 2008, just the way it is!
Jimmy27NYY
http://baseballtheyankeesandlife.mlblogs.com/
I’m not sure how relevant Santana’s numbers are in Boston. If he’s sign with Boston, his numbers there will improve because we won’t be facing the *******. As for New York, they’ll be grateful if he signs with them because they won’t have to face him and his 1.29 ERA. The price is still too high for him. Roll the dice with the starting rotation and fix the pen and the bench. This is a broken record.
The censored word is b_l_o_w_s_o_x. Jimmy, I’d pitch Pettitte vs Buckett, Hughes vs Buttholz, Joba vs Schitling, & I don’t have faith in Moose but him vs. Lesturd.
nodigidee@aol.com said:
“The censored word is b_l_o_w_s_o_x. Jimmy, I’d pitch Pettitte vs Buckett, Hughes vs Buttholz, Joba vs Schitling, & I don’t have faith in Moose but him vs. Lesturd.”
What is with the stupid nicknames? I’m a die-hard Yankees fan, and hate the Red Sox as a team, but I have a lot of respect for some of their players. Clay Buchholz(spelling?) is to the Red Sox what Joba is to the Yankees, and I have the utmost respect for both of the young players. I think they will both become great pitchers, and be invaluable to their respective teams. As much as I hate to say it about a Red Sox player, Josh Beckett is one of the best pitchers in baseball right now. If he finishes out his current contract pitching like he has the last two years, I can envision him receiving more money than Johan will. He’s a phenomenal athlete, and I respect him as a player. These nicknames are immature, and just make all Yankees fans look stupid and arrogant.
arun, I agree wholeheartedly! I would LOVE to stop all this Johan buzz and talk about making one last move to get a decent middle reliever. We have a lot of bullpen question marks, and a lot of guys that in a year or two will form possibly one of the best bullpens in the league if they all work out as projected (Cox, Melancon, Sanchez, etc.), but I think we still need one more more arm going into this season that isn’t an unknown. Someone besides Hawkins and Farnsworth that we can fall back on if the young guns don’t pan out.
But, chances are, we’ll keep discussing Johan over and over. How many blog entries on Santana have there been this offseason? And thats not a fault of Bryan, he’s just doing his job, this stuff is everywhere. I’m so tired of trade speculation, I just want to watch some baseball!
And Jimmy, I agree that the problem Cash and Hal have is definitely not really the amount of money, but the 6-7 year commitment. Thats a huge risk to take, even for a player of Johan’s caliber, and when you throw into the equation the players we’d have to lose in order to take that risk in the first place…its simply too much.
Josh Beckett 2006/2007: 4.15 ERA
Mike Mussina 2006/2007: 4.22 ERA
I think people forget that Beckett’s ERA in 2006 was over 5. I tend to think that his 2007 was a career year, and going forward he’ll go back to an ERA in the high 3s/low 4s.
Another thought on the Santana trade is that I am 95% confident that Santana has already had the best season of his career (probably the best 2-3). I am also 95% confident that Hughes has not had his best season yet.
Just to throw my two-cents in:
For a while I really wanted Johan Santana to be a Yankees next season. However, the more I consider the possibilities, the less I like them. I agree that using Phil Hughes, Joba, and Ian Kennedy as half of the projected 2008 starting rotation is risky. I will be one of the first to say that relying on prospects is a risky business, one that might come back to haunt the 2008 Yankees. Bryan Cashamn likes to say prospects are suspects, and I cannot agree more. But I have to consider all scenarios, and the Madden article really changed my thinking. I think signing Johan to a 6-7 year contract extension would be a huge mistake for the Yankees. While the thought of Johan in pinstripes is tantalizing, and has the potential to work out great in the years to come, the fact is that the odds – and history – are not in the Yankees favor. The key word in both scenarios is potential. Phil Hughes, Joba, and Ian Kennedy all have the potential to be stars. Johan Santana has the potential to be a star for the Yankees. But there’s also the possibility of him blowing out his arm in July and never pitching for the Yankees again. (-cough- Carl Pavano -cough-) If I were in Brian Cashman’s shoes, I would tell Hank Steinbrenner to shut the -beep- up, and say no to the Twins demands, even if it means Johan goes to Boston. The risks of a long-term deal are equal to the risks of relying on three unproven pitchers. The price the Yankees would have to pay to acquire Santana, in terms of players, money, and length of contract, is just too great.
-end book here-
Richard, If you’re calling me immature, you’re entitled to your opinion. I’ll show you how mature I am by turning the other cheeck. I’m also a die-hard Yankees fan. The difference is, I don’t like any of their players nor do I respect them.
Focusing on the bullpen…
In Anthony McCarron’s article today [Sunday, Jan 6, 2008], in the New York Daily News, he reports that Brian Cashman has stated that: “only three pitchers are written in for the bullpen” – at this time!
McCarron writes, “By Brian Cashman’s estimation, only three relievers are assured of slots in the Yankee bullpen – Mariano Rivera, Kyle Farnsworth, and LaTroy Hawkins. The rest of the pen, Cashman says, is likely to come from the team’s pool of young pitchers”…
Cashman, also said, “The pen is a work in progress. We’ll have a lot of competition in spring training…We have guys with a lot of potential. If they’re ready now or later, we’ll have to see”…
WHY IS KYLE FARNSWORTH STILL ON THIS TEAM ?????????
Can anyone explain Cashman’s confidence in Kyle Farnsworth???
Did Brian Cashman watch the games Farnsworth appeared in, last year?
Time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, etc., etc., etc….Farnsworth came into games, AND WAS A DISASTER!!!
Nothing is going to change! If Farnsworth is in the bullpen this year, he is going to continue to come into games, and be just as ineffective as he has been [Farnsworth is a has-been; or, a never-was] in the past!
Please, TRADE KYLE FARNSWORTH!!!…Do not put us through this nightmare – ANYMORE!
One final positive note…
The Yankees did sign a lefthanded pitcher over the weekend – Billy Traber – to a minor-league contract…
(reported by Anthony McCarron – according to Baseball America’s Web site)
Traber, was the Mets #1 pick (16th overall) in 2000. He was 2-2 with a 4.76 ERA in 28 games for the Nationals last season….It’s not a major move, but at least Billy Traber is a lefthander. He will be part of the bullpen mix in spring training, and lets hope he pitches well enough to make the team in 2008.
Jimmy27NYY
http://baseballtheyankeesandlife.mlblogs.com/
Jimmy, we also signed Heath Phillips to a minor league deal, another left hander.
I’m glad to see that nobody is being handed a bullpen role (aside from the other 3), I think the competition will bring out the best in some of these kids.
And who knows about Farnsworth? I’ve long since given up trying to figure out why Cashman likes him…the only way we should see him in the eighth inning, is if we’re up by 5+ runs, or down by 8+ runs.
Good news on our newly acquired lefty Billy Traber!
He may not have had a great ERA in his MLB stint (4.76), but during his MLB play, he held lefties to a .176 batting average…I’d say he’s got a good shot to make the bullpen as the lefty specialist. Can’t be worse than Myers!
jlemoine,
Thanks for pointing out the Heath Phillips signing. His name was in the same Daily News article [I just kind of read over it quickly]…I guess, too much “Farnsworth” on my mind!…
But, I did just check out Phillips’ stats. He is a lefthanded starter, age 26, from the White Sox Organization. The ChiSox called him up at the end of last year, and he was 1-1 with a 3.68 ERA [only 7 IP].
His career minor league stats are: 59-61 with a 3.85 ERA [7 seasons in the minors]…
In 2006 he was 13-5, 2.96 ERA, in 25 starts [155 IP, 152 H, 39 BB, 102 K's] – AAA
In 2007 he was 13-7, 4.30 ERA,
in 28 starts [173 IP, 198 H, 56 BB, 108 K's - and, he gave up 23 HR's] – AAA
I would say its a good pick-up. Phillips is another lefty we really need, and will also be part of the mix that hopefully will produce some gems for the Yankee Pitching Staff this year!…
Another point regarding the pitching…The starters must pitch more than 5 or 6 innings each game. The Yankees need the Starters to pitch more 7, and 8 inning games [and, even complete some games]…this will help the bullpen situation, by not being so dependent on the middle relievers!
Jimmy27NYY
http://baseballtheyankeesandlife.mlblogs.com/
Phillips and Traber are no Marte, but I’m encouraged by Traber’s strong BAA vs. lefties.
This will be one of the most interesting spring trainings in a long time.
jimmy and jlemoine,
Thanks for the news on Traber and Phillips. By signing these guys, we are moving in the right direction. Traber especially, a guy in his mid 20s with a great BA vs. leftys. Yankees are looking better every day.
Can’t wait till Spring
Ok, here’s something to chew on. We DON’T trade for Santana now. And we go on to number 27 next season. Then Santana becomes a FA. Do you sign him then? Remember, no Moose (likely), no Pettitte (possibly). Does it depend on Andy’s year? He goes 17-7 with a 3.2 era no? He goes 11-13 with a 4.2 era yes? Do we even win the series if he’s sub-.500?
I don’t agree that Moose has been a bust for the Yanks. He’s approaching a 2:1 W/L ratio and has proven extremely durable and good for an average 15 wins a season. I’ve said it again and again and again, he has numbers that every other team in the LEAGUE would have killed for over the last 4 years.
Good luck Andy! If I were GM, you’d be starting at first. I hate to say it but we may live to see an ’07 reduex at 1b in ’08. Giambi? Come on. Can anyone legitimately point to a single reason why he is a viable option to START at 1b? He’s already had his comeback year. He’s 37 tomorrow. His body is broken down and he’s a groin pull from season’s end. Betimit is a career .260 hitter how perhaps can hit for power but has year to be tested over a full season. He’s only 25 but could be a never was.
man, if I could type…
Betemit is a career .260 hitter and perhaps can hit for power but has yet to be tested over a full season.
And while I’m at it, Duncan has potential but I’m so over this whole “platoon thing”
rcngolf99, Good Morning!
Yes! I think if Johan Santana is a “free agent” in 2009, he should be at the top of the Yankees list [ along with Mark Teixeira - at first base ], as priorities to bring to New York as free agent signings for the 2009 Season, and 5-7 years into the future…Then, these signings will not cost the Yankees having to give up any good, young players in a trade….
Money seems to be less of an issue to the Yankees concerning signing these players. It’s the length of the contracts that is the concern! [especially, in the case of starting pitchers. A 6 or 7 year deal is very risky. Not many over the years have been worth it]…
Mike Mussina has been an exception! [as shown in Bill Madden's article yesterday in the NY Daily News (1-06-08)...
Mussina has lived up to the $88.5 Million contract he signed. He's 92-54, so far with the Yanks; and, I do think he will have a very solid year in 2008!
The Yankees need to focus on building up the bullpen; and, the two signings of the lefthanded pitchers [Traber and Phillips] over the weekend will help that whole process. Hopefuly, we will leave spring training with a solid and healthy pitching staff – especially in the Bullpen!
JimmyNYY
Think Spring!
http://baseballtheyankeesandlife.mlblogs.com/
Not a chance in the world Santana makes it to free agency. Better chances are that Bruney and Britton weigh less than 230 coming into spring training.. Why would the Twins take two draft picks over ANY deal being offered. This god darn deal might not be done before spring training, but it will get done before the deadline. There is just no way the Twins would let him become a free agent when they could get 4-5 solid prospects/mlb ready players from the Sox, Mets, or Yanks.
Regarding Tex, who on earth wouldn’t want him. But I think that the Braves will extend him def. He said he loves the team and the atmosphere.. not good for us.
CC is also working out an extension with the Indians. Who knows if the indians will fold to his 5-7 year demand.
But it looks like the 3 09′s best free agents will not hit free agency, unfortunately.
“Who on earth would want” Teixeria?!? Did I miss something or is he a 29 yo switch hitting, power hitter, gold glove 1B, who Atlanta wouldn’t be able to afford to resign?
Also diagree re Santana. No Team is going to trade the Farm and pay $20 – 25 M for 6 – 7 years to get him to waive No Trade Clause, unless Hank screws up big time. And once Season starts, Santana will opt for no trade loption and testing FA waters post 2008.
Note also that after 2008, Yanks will be shedding major payroll, contracts of Giambi ($23 M), Mussina ($11 M), Pavano ($10 M), Farenworth ($5M), and possibly also Abreu and Pettitte (at $16 M each) to free up room for major FA acquisitions while going into the new Stadium.
Do the math, that’s $49 M to $81 M coming off the payroll after 2008.