Hot Stove: Still pondering Johan
The latest on the Johan Santana front, from which news seems to roll in and out like the tide…
The Yankees have not placed an offer for Twins ace left-hander Johan Santana on the table, according to Hank Steinbrenner, who says that he is "still thinking about it." Steinbrenner spoke Thursday with the Newark (N.J.) Star-Ledger, reiterating his earlier comments by saying that the Yankees "clearly" have the best offer for Santana.
Steinbrenner also said that he "wouldn’t be crying" if a deal does not reach completion because of the players involved — the Yankees likely would have to give up pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera, and at least one other mid-level prospect.
Stay tuned…
Bryan Hoch
ST. PETERSBURG, FL—The Tampa Bay Rays have agreed to terms with infielder Andy Cannizaro and outfielder John Rodriguez on minor league contracts. Each player was invited to major league spring training.
Cannizaro, 29, joins the Rays organization from the New York Yankees. He played 52 games at second base, shortstop and third base with Scranton/Wilkes-Barre (AAA) in 2007 and completed an eight-game rehabilitation assignment with Trenton (AA). The right-handed hitter batted .295 (49-for-166) with two home runs and 20 RBI for Scranton and owns a career .274 average over seven minor league seasons, all spent in the Yankees organization. At the major league level, he hit .250 during a 13-game stint with New York in September 2006. He entered spring training last year vying for a major league roster spot until a back injury during the first week of camp sidelined him through June. The Yankees selected him in the seventh round of the 2001 June Draft.
Lost another one, eh? Hey Bryan, has anyone picked up Andy Phillips yet, or is he still an FA?
Man this Santana stuff is getting ridiculous. We’re in it, we’re not in it, we’re back in, back out…over and over. Enough, Hank. Keep the kids and lets get the season started. I was really bored yesterday, and I watched Hughes’ post season performance on MLB TV…man did he look sharp. Brilliant, really. If he can pitch like that this season…he’ll win 15 games easy.
Andy Phillips is still a free agent, yes.
Why hasn’t anyone mentioned Sean Casey as our first basemen.
He’s a consistent career .300 hitter, has a great glove, no injury report, he sounds perfect, and sure he wouldn’t cost too much cuz i haven’t heard his name in any rumors.
I could see the only con being that he’s a lefty but I think he would definately bring more to the table than Duncan Betemit and Giambi combined. But I guess they don’t want more clutter at 1B.
Phillips has been burned so many times, i can’t see him coming back.
Bryan, why would we send scouts to see Benson thow and “kick Prior tires” but have “no interest in stopgaps” when talking about the Rocket? I get the impression that Hank wakes up one day thinking one thing, another day completely different.
Top free agents out there (not for us just period):
Armando Benitez
Barry Bonds
Kris Benson?
Mike Cameron
Roger Clemens
Bartalo Colon
Octavio Dotel
Darin Erstad
Keith Foulke?
Luis Gonzalez
Shawn Green
Livan Hernandez
Ryan Klesko
Jon Lieber
Corey Koskie
Kenny Lofton
Troy Nixon
Odalis Perez
Mike Piazza
Chris Reitsma
Reggie Sanders
Corey Patterson
Shannon Stewart
Mike Sweeney
David Wells
Kenny Lofton may be welcome back without Torre? Other the names, none are that appealing other than Dotel or Bonds (don’t need a DH).
I could be wrong, but let’s put all the Mitchell Report stuff aside: I just don’t see Clemens being a significant impact to a team or even pitching again, especially now that he’s started to have physical problems above the waist. It was almost sad to watch him limp out there against the Indians in the ALDS, especially after watching how grueling it was for him most of September. Every day it seemed to be something else.
His agent says they’re going to proceed as though Clemens is retired, and I think the majority of Yankees fans would prefer to see younger talent develop than watch Clemens Part III.
SEAN CASEY!!
But Bryan,
This was Clemens first arm injury, Pettitte has had numerous elbow problems. I agree with you basically but if Clemens wants to pitch, I’d rather see him than Colon, Benson, Pryor, etc if we have a need for another starter at some juncture.
Hank’s comment remind me of when they told David Wells they wanted to get younger and then traded for Randy Johnson.
We don’t know what’s going on in the minds of the Minnesota Twins organzation, but it does seem they will have to either sign Santana [with the opening of their new ballpark in a couple of years - this makes a lot of sense]; or, trade him before the 2008 Season starts…The longer the Twins wait, the greater the possibility they will lose Santana to free agency in 2009! [Before than, he has to agree to any team that he is traded to]…
With all that said, the three main reasons [in my view] for the Yankees to bring Johan Santana to New York, are:
1. He’s a Lefthanded Starter.
2. He’s one of the top five pitchers in the game today.
3. To prevent the Red Sox from making a trade for him.
Of all the above three reasons, the only one that really is an issue in my mind is: #3 … I feel that’s the main argument for the Yankees to trade for Santana – so that he does not go to the Red Sox!
[even if the Mets can somehow put together a package to trade for Johan Santana, (very doubtful), - I could live with that]…
…By the way, What’s going on with the Mets? They have been very quiet this off-season. After their historic collapse at the end of last year [going from 7 games up with 17 games left - and, not making the Playoffs], you would think that they would have made at least a few major moves by now. I don’t know…I’m just asking?
Other than all that, lets end all this “Trade Talk” for Johan Santana!
The Yankees are ready for the “Season” right now!… Except for the bullpen situation, and first base. [I think the Yankees need Jason Giambi to play full time at first (at least 120 games at first, and the rest as DH - if he is healthy).
With our Starting Rotation, and the rest of the line-up [as it is now set-up on the roster]…The Yankees are totally capable of winning it all in 2008!!!
p.s. – Hopefully, the bullpen situation will be worked-out in spring training [starting with the Yankees trading Kyle Farnsworth]. The bullpen is a major key for a successful 2008 Season; and, also, the Starting Pitchers have to pitch more 7, 8, and 9 inning games!
Jimmy27NYY
Think Spring!
http://baseballtheyankeesandlife.mlblogs.com/
Melky is replaceable in the long term, so the argument is Hughes vs. Santana. Go at it.
I’d rather figure a trade involving Kennedy instead of Hughes but I don’t think we have the chips for that.
WHAT IS GOING ON WITH CANO’S CONTRACT? DOES NO DEAL = SANTANA TRADE?
Sean Casey – the slowest man in baseball???
He’s 33 and already shuffling along the bases at the speed of a 45 year old.
Let’s just play Giambi & Duncan there – stick Miranda at AAA and if the worst comes to it, call him up.
The Yanks don’t need Clemens, period. Like Matt said, he didn’t just suffer an arm injury, he also had a groin injury, and hamstring injury. He doesn’t bring anything to the team. He’s another injury ready to happen.
candyrunts – yea.. cuz giambi’s real fast around the bags. Giambi hasn’t hit even close to Casey’s numbers in the last 4 years.
Melky may be replaceable long term, but not short term, and that does come into play, bpark. I don’t see how you can wave that off.
Well yeah Giambi is a worthless sack of **** but he’s contracted for next year.
Maybe they should just play Duncan all year and hope his defence is upto standard come fall
The only way that doesn’t come into play, is if the Yankees were rebuilding, which they are not. We are competing. Sure, we can get an outfielder as good or better then Melky in a couple of years, but if he trade him away he have a huge hole in CF, and you can’t dispute that.
Damon is not a viable CF option anymore – he’s getting older, has injury issues, and can’t throw.
Matsui in center is a joke.
I don’t believe Jackson or Gardner is ready yet, and Tabata is still a couple years away.
Cameron is awful.
So who exactly is he replaceable by? Sounds to me like trading for Johan causes more problems than it fixes. And I didn’t even mention we’d lose a potential ace in Hughes, a potential good middle reliever in Marquez, and ANOTHER potentially helpful player in our farm. I don’t get how that is worth it.
On Center Field: Abreu COULD play center if needed; he’s silly fast, has a strong arm, and can really go get ‘em….
Besides, if we trade Melky and realize we don’t have too much outfield defense, we can always grab a defensive specialist since our batting power is so strong.
Long and short term I would take Johan…
Agreed jlemoine. Santana isn’t worth it. That deal could be more expensive down the road than the Yanks think. They may have to deal more prospects just to fill the one hole Cabrera’s departure would leave. Who’s to say that JAckson or Tabata wouldn’t be involved in that deal as well.
WHY is everyone talking about Melky like he’s just an okay outfielder and therefore easily replaceable? i think he’s an outstanding outfielder
he’s got speed, jump, and a gun for an arm – didn’t he get a record number of outfield assists last year? his offense is the only thing that’s average but against Damon, Matsui, and Abreu that’s not too bad
Good point Matt, I’ve heard both of those names come up as well as the possible “4th prospect”.
Yonksrox, the last thing we need is a center fielder than sh!ts bricks every time he hits the warning track. Abreu is good, but he’s terrified of the wall and he’s not very aggressive when balls are hit out there. He’s better in right.
And now we’re talking about a CF defensive specialist? Haven’t we learned from our first base situation? How many roster spots do you people think we have?
Levelboss, I’m with you, I love Melky, as that is most likely apparent.
Abreu is only a short-term answer if that’s what they do. He’s an older player with only a couple of good seasons left in him.
Douggie may still re-sign now that Rod is back.
Melky is excellent defensively but his has no power. He is very replaceable long term. Short term, you can get another good defensive cheap CF with lesser hitting %.
Abreu will not play center.
Duncan is more of an option than Abreu.
I’m not convinced either way by this Santana talk.
I hope it just gets over and done with soon.
I kind of think it might not be resolved till mid-season though
i’m hoping that in a couple of years Bobby can be the fulltime DH.. his defense may be lacking a little, but i think he can hit well for years – plus he’s got that smooth swing – smoother than ARod’s swing
Still think Clemens only option is the pen.
Looks like Betemit and SDuncan to start for 1B, then maybe a call up or trade. If Giambi brings his glove, someone should hide it. Be nice if EDuncan could realize his potential, He rested all Fall and Winter for the first time. Either he or Miranda may look good by July/August.
The Bosox keep wishing a Santana for Crisp, Lester, Lowrie, and Masterson trade would happen, dream on! What a steal that would be. That’s the only way the Boston brass would risk $20Mil+ and years 5, 6, and 7.
Everyone forgets that the S&C coach screwed us last Spring. Otherwise Moose, Pettitte, or Wang would have been on the mound opening day, instead of Pavano. Forget his name, but when did he get canned, Bryan, April or May? If Damon’s legs are healthy all year he could be an All-star or MVP. I think that more likely than Swisher getting an MVP vote, are they crazy in Chicago?
The only knock on Abreu’s defense is he’s bad when near a wall. I’ve known him longer than most of you since the Phillies are my second team. I was hoping to get him when Sheffield was signed.
lets hope “No Offense” Meintkiewicz isn’t resigned.
OK Matt, 5,000 mile award for spelling Meintkiewicz before I looked it up. Is he related to Pavano? same kind of luck!
Regarding Roger Clemens pitching again this season…
I think his main goal right now [other than clearing his name, and deciding what "hat" he wants on his Hall of Fame plaque - if and when he is ever voted into the Hall of Fame] – is pitching for the USA Baseball team in this year’s Summer Olympics, in Beijing China…
The Games are scheduled to be held, August 8 – 24, 2008.
[it's sad to note: This is the last time Baseball,(and, ladies Softball), will be played at the Olympics - unless both sports are reinstated at some future date]
So, if any team wants to sign Roger Clemens this year, it would be only for the month of September, and possibly the Playoffs and World Series – if that team made it that far in October. (Of course, this would be the case – only if Clemens pitches for TEAM USA)!
Hank Steinbrenner already said the Yankees are not interested in bringing back Clemens – and, I agree!
Regardless of this whole steroid mess, the Yankees do not need Roger Clemens!
Jimmy27NYY
http://baseballtheyankeesandlife.mlblogs.com/
Do we really need Hughes and Melky worring about being traded right now? Can ol’ Hank put this issue to rest and let the kids get on with offseason training already.
Here here arun
This has to be one of the most boring offseasons ever. The most “exicting” thing that has happened in baseball recently is Nick Swisher going to Chicago. I’m sick of all the Santana talk, I’m sick of hearing about Roger and steriods, I’m ready for spring training, the regular season should start in March!!
actually the regular season WILL start in March for the Yankees.. March 31 home opener against Toronto
Early March, like um March 1st!!!!
Jimmy,
I disagree. I think in your list it’s number 1. He’s not just “A lefty starter”. He’s one of the (if not the) best in the game. He’s relatively young at 29 with 5 to 7 or so outstanding years left and then perhaps even a few after that as a solid lefty (as Moose has been as a righty – good for 13-15 a season) number 3 or 4? I said it a couple weeks back when someone posted a link of our top propects on the farm. The biggest glaring hole was the complete lack of a top tier, A-level lefty starter prospect. That means we have Pettitte for at least 1 more year and likely 2 or 3 after that maybe! But after that? Do we hope that we catch lightening in a bottle with a lefty as we did with Hughes and Joba? Or do we trade the farm for Kazmir? Or??? You get my point I think.
Hankee Sox, just do the **** thing. Bring Santana here.
Hankee Sock I ment.
Don’t bring Santana here.
I won’t cry about it if the trade is made, but I like what we have now.
Hey, if Santana wins 20 games, and Jackson is ready to take center field in a couple months, I’ll be happy. But losing Hughes, Melky, Marquez, and another prospect is a big loss, and unless he can get a good center fielder, he lose more than we gain. And no, Cameron, Damon, Abreu, or Matsui do not count as good CF options. Maybe Damon occasionally, but he can’t play every day. And we don’t need to platoon at ANOTHER position.
To continue since I accidentially clicked the post button…
Without Santana our rotation in a year COULD look like:
1. Wang
2. Joba
3. Kennedy
4. Hughes
5. ??
or
1. Wang
2. Pettitte (by now 37 years old)
3. Joba
4. Kennedy
5. Hughes
At the very LEAST in a year with Santana we are:
1. Santana
2. Wang
3. Joba
4. Kennedy
5. ??? or add in Pettitte if he stays on.
Regardless of how well we THING the youngsters will do, the fact is, NONE of them has shown up for a whole season and 33 starts and 200 innings. To assume that we will come out on the other side with 3 starters producing the kind of starts we are projecting for them for years to come is a bit on the presumptuous side I believe. Let’s not forget that there was a time early last season when some here were putting Rasner in the rotation for 2008……
THING? THING 1? THING 2? Its THINK!
I posted this the other day that Santana is too much. I haven’t heard one decent replacement for Melky in CF. Damon, Matsui, Abreu, etc. No thanks. Melky doesn’t have power, so what. This team doesn’t need it. He just needs to get on base. I wasn’t convinced the Yanks win the East with Santana a couple days ago, and I’m still not convinced today. Do I think the Yanks will win it all in ’08? No but i’ll take my chances with the starting rotation as is. I’d rather see Clemens at set-up than Farnsworth. Afeldt is still a FA. Fix the pen-fix the pen-fix the pen. oh yeah, sign some role players for this bench too.
Cabrera is just an OK outfielder, and is easily replaceable? I just don’t think so. He’s a 22 year old, he’s already threatening to be a .300 hitter, he’s got a solid glove, he’s got the best centerfield arm in the american league, he’s fast, he’s a switch hitter. Who the **** are we going to just replace all that with? Corey Patterson? C’mon! A .260 hitter that will K at least 150 times per season? Mike Cameron? Please! A .250 hitter that is not only a ROID FREAK, but is also OLLLLLLLLLLLDDDDDDDD! Not to mention the fact that we wouldn’t even have him for the first 25 games of the season.
For the last time, making 2 holes in the roster to fill one is not the answer. I don’t care how good Johan is, or how good Boston would be with him, he costs too **** much. Let Johan go for Christ’s sake. We can get Sabathia next season off the FA list if we can’t get Johan anyway. WE NEED TO FIX THE **** BULLPEN! We already have a great starting rotation. But, whatever, we’ve been debating this **** for 3 months. Minnesota is looking to bend us over, stick it in, and break it off on this Johan deal. We’ve been trading away our home grown talent, and sticking the ball in the hands of outside mercenaries for the last 7 years, and it has worked SO WELL! Why not perpetuate the idiocy by doing the same stupid **** again in 2008? Gimme a break!
nodigidee, I agree with you. There simply is no replacement for Cabrera at all, so why create another hole to go along with the hole at 1st base, and in the bullpen. No one can guarantee me that Santana will be able to stay healthy this season or beyond. IF he does get hurt, the Yanks won’t be losing one staff ace ,it will be losing two (depending on how you feel about Hughes). Lets not forget the Yanks could possibly have other holes to fill within the next few years at short, LF, RF, and catcher. The players currently manning those positions aren’t getting any younger. Do we really want to continue to the trend of giving away prospects? Keeping the younger players is a gamble, but so is acquiring Santana, but the upside is worth taking that gamble.
If Cashman would have made this deal while we had a chance at Torii Hunter, Aaron Rowand, or Andruw Jones I would have said yes, but he is a dolt, and waited to **** long. Now there is no viable replacement for Melky in center. Right now, we should all be in full panic mode concerning our utter **** bullpen. Go ahead and sign Johan, that way he can lose out on 5-7 decisions in 2008 because we don’t have enough pitchers in the bullpen to hold a lead versus a beer league softball squad. I’ve said it once, and I guess I’ll say it 1000 more times, “IT DOESN’T MATTER HOW GOOD A STARTING ROTATION IS IF THERE ISN’T A BULLPEN AVAILABLE TO HOLD DOWN A LEAD!” I don’t know about the rest of you Yankee fans, but I am sick of watching this team win games 10-7!
I agree chaz, getting Santana definitely improves the rotation, but he doesn’t make it great. This organization needs to get its priorities straight and deal with the real problem areas like the pen, and first.
OK Chaz,
What do you think of the Rocket in the pen come September? Even Pavano may be more likely. Or will Sanchez step up?
Jackson and Tabata will both be at AA Trenton. Likely too far to jump to NY.
For the record……..AGAIN
Johan Santana’s playoff numbers:
3.97 ERA AND A CRAPPY 1-3 RECORD!
What a big game pitcher! He’s only 29? Great, so is Pavano. And Hughes, Kennedy, and Joba are in their EARLY 20′s. And if you don’t remember, 1 of those playoff losses Johan has was to US. We made him our punk B_TCH when he was in Minnesota, we’ll punk his *** out when he’s a chowderhead, too!
Here’s something else to chew on. Did anyone stop and think Johan’s numbers might have alot to do with the fact that he plays in the WEAKEST division in the AL? The minute that Detroit and Cleveland put together great teams he had his worst season ever. Coincidence? What was his record VS. Cleveland last year? Oh, that’s right, it was a nice 0-5! Put him in the AL East, and watch that pretty little era go right through the freaking roof! From 1996 to 2004, I would have had an ERA under 4 in the AL Central. The instant Johan steps up and has to play Boston 5 games per season, or us for that matter, he’ll get his butt handed to him.
The Rocket is finished. Why would we want a 45 year old that is prone to injury? If Pavano can stay healthy, why not? I hope some of these young guys like Sanchez can step it up, because Cashman sure as **** has made little strides at improving the one facet of our game that needed it most. It really won’t matter how good these youngters do anyway. Because Farnsworth is sure to blow any strong performances from our youngsters when he gets the rock in the 8th inning. Our bullpen is freaking terrible! Brian Cashman…….THANKS FOR NOTHING!!!!!!
Melky threw out 14 alone at home last season alone the highest in all leagues a total I think of 16 for the season remarkable stats for someone his age, he hit i believe at .273 and stole 13 bases so he has speed. I reckon there is no way he can be traded AT ALL. Not only just for the above stats alone but for the lift he gave to the team he has that certain rare spark which can lift a team. I would say totally irreplaceable along with Hughes who what is the expression was lights out in the only post season game one and pitched by him given he came in for Clemens.
As for the Clemens talk lets leave it alone. Hank has publicly stated HE WILL NOT PITCH FOR THE YANKEES AGAIN HAS HE NOT. END OF STORY . That said the only tradeable commodity appears to be Kennedy Igawa Marquez Horne.
Sentinel would make a better GM than Brian Cashman.
I think Santana makes the rotation borderline great, it’s all dependant on the young arms that we wouldn’t trade. BUT that does not maen that the team will be guarenteed success. We all know we need bullpen arms, but quality arms are more than tough to find right now. I don’t really mind seeing an internal battle for a bullpen spot this year. It’ll be a rebuilding year, and for the Yankees that means they’ll still be good enough to make a playoff push, but out of Alby, Edwar, Olendorf, Bruney, Veres, Britten, Karstens, Farnsworth (not competing unfortunatly), and Hawkins, one or two should piece together a good year and another one or two should have a solid year (you would think). The bullpen isn’t great but we still have Mo, so it could be worse. And I pray to God Clemens and Pavano don’t go tothe ‘pen. Keep them as far away as possible from the ’08 Yankees please.
wow lots of caps and exclamation marks
relax, chazbedlam (may i call you chazbedlam?).. take a deep breath.. just chillax
IT’S GOING TO BE O-KAY
Well said kbppl. Noone says anything about the fact that Cano and Melky are attached at the hip, either. So, let’s pull Cano from winter ball, screw him out of the contract he deserves, and trade his best friend! I’m sure he’ll love that! Then, we can lose Cano and watch him win an AL MVP with some other squad! I’m so excited! We are finally building a young team with CHEMISTRY. That will win far more championships that 25 hired guns. Or, has everyone been asleep for the last 7 years? I know Cashman has been!
Boston singing Johan:
Dolling out young prospects for him to improve a rotation that is already (arguably) the best in baseball, is even more rediculous than us selling the farm for him. Boston is in the race simply to drive OUR price up. If they do get him, it slightly improves a facet of their game that was dangerous to begin with. It changes nothing. They go from winning 100 games to winning 104, so what?
Well Girardi is expected to get more inning out of the starters. And another name you might see from the farm is Cox. Before an injury and the Sanchez trade, he was the closer of the future. I think they compared him to Street. With the A’s rebuilding, even getting Street is a posibility.
Santana’s record at Fenway, in the Bosox fans words, is putrid!
IMHO, i think we’ve already seen a championship team.. the Yankees in the second half of 2007
they fell short of the AL East title by only 2 games, because of the horrible first half.. and they lost in the ALDS because of a tired Wang (lol, no jokes please), an aging and injured Clemens, and bugs
otherwise, the rotation solidified nicely with Hughes and Kennedy and with Joba as a lights out setup man
that’s why i think the Yankees as they are now are serious contenders.. and i STILL think Joba should stay as setup man (unless Humberto Sanchez becomes 2008′s Joba)
I hope you are right, Levelboss
Someone definately will be 2008′s Joba. We’re just stuggling to guess who!
as regards the bullpen, i think folks are NOT realizing just how important it was to have Joba as setup man – winning the 1 and 2 run games
i’m sure Joba could do well as a starter, but a true setup man can be as important as a starter or a closer.. hopefully Humberto Sanchez could join the team in 2008 and provide the same lights-out effect as Joba
From what I’ve heard about people that have seen them pitch, both Cox and Sanchez are supposed to have that ability. If thats true on both counts, we are sitting pretty.
J. Brent cox was being compared to Houston Street when the Yanks drafted him in the first round of the draft a couple of seasons ago, he was sidelined most of last season by an injury, but he could be a good possibility to be a setup man in the very near future. Sanchez definitely has the stuff to be a quality starter or setup man, only question is his recovery from TJ surgery.
I agree regarding the bullpen potential of Sanchez and Cox. A third guy coming back from injury to watch is Melancon, who Baseball America projects as the Yanks future closer.
The Yanks are also high on the bullpen potential of Ohlendorf and Veras. Newly acquired Albaladejo had great numbers last year in limited appeareances. And recent roster addition Scott Patterson was lights out in relief at AA Trenton.
Giradi seems to think that having caught Farnsworth for several years with Chicago, he can get something useful from this head case.
There are multiple other options in the bullpen mix.
Regarding Santana, no one seems to have noted that while he was virtually unbetable in the second half of the season from 2004-2006 while winning his two Cy Young Awards, in 2007 (while going 15 – 13) he was putrid in the second half…going 5 – 7 in 15 post All Star break starts with an ERA of over 4.00. A definate “red flag” regarding the once “best pitcher in basebll,” who may well no longer be. Stick with the youth movement.
Here’s what these guys have done in the minors to give you an idea:
J.B. Cox – 23 years old
A+ Tampa – 27.2 IP, 2.60 ERA, 27 Ks
AA Trenton – 77 IP, 1.75 ERA, 60 Ks
Sidelined all of 2007, but is expected to pitch again soon, and if he can return to form, expect him to get a fair amount of innings in AAA under his belt. If he keeps pitching like that, he might be a call up at the end of the season, Joba-style.
Humberto Sanchez – 24 years old
AA Erie (Tigers organization) – 71.2 IP, 1.76 ERA, 86 Ks
AAA Toledo – 51.1 IP, 3.86 ERA, 43 Ks. Most people think the higher ERA was due to nagging injuries, which led to the TJ surgery. Same boat as Cox, didn’t throw a pitch in 2007, but if he returns to form, he could prove to be another very useful bullpen boost in August.
again, i really think people underestimate the importance of a true setup man.. look at the difference in 1-run wins between the first half of 2007 and the second half
the Yankees can afford Joba in relief because of the solid rotation – Pettitte, Wang, Hughes, Kennedy, and Moose
Chamberlain pitching 6 or 7 innings would be more valuable, especially since no one knows how Kennedy, Mussina, Hughes, Pettitte or Wang will do next season. IF one of them should happen to fall on their face Chamberlain can help pick up the slack in the rotation by pitching those 6 or 7 innings, and possibly dominating with his stuff.
Mark Melancon is also very promising, but has very limited appearances, and has yet to throw a pitch for Tampa yet (he’s been in lower A ball).
Here’s my sleeper pick:
Daniel McCutchen
He’s getting on the old side for a minor leaguer at 25, but he’s put up some great numbers.
2006 with A- Staten Island – 1.13 ERA, 11 Ks in 8 innings.
2006 With A Charleston – 2.14 ERA, 18 Ks in 21 innings.
2007 with A+ Tampa – 2.58 ERA, 67 Ks in 101 innings.
2007 with AA Trenton – 2.41 ERA in 36 Ks in 41 innings.
Another possibility is Dave Robertson. He’s 22.
2007 with A Charleston – .77 ERA, 67 Ks in 47 innings.
2007 A+ Tampa – 1.08 ERA, 37 Ks in 31 innings
2007 AA Trenton – 2.25 ERA, 9 Ks in 4 innings.
Look for both of these guys to start in AAA (Maybe Robertson in AA), with the possibility of making in impact later this year.
And yes, this is how bored I am.
The only rub, no lefty (I think).
Invaluable as Joba was to saving the season from the bullpen in 2007, he projects to have even greater potential as a “true #1 starter” IF he can stay healthy enough to log the innings. He has three different plus pitches (fastball, slider and power curve) and solid average change-up. As relievers usually only use two pitches, Joba projects as having more value as a starter.
One or more likely several of the stable of young guns with only two plus pitches project better for the bullpen. In addition to those that I mentioned above, others in the mix could be Ramierez, White, Wright, Whelan and Horne.
And, who knows, perhaps Girardi, Eiland and McNulty (?new BP coach) can coax something useful out of one or more of: Hawkins, Bruney, Britton, Igawa, Henn, Karastens.
Also on the horizon for late 2008 could be Smith, Jones, McCutchen and additional injury rehabing former top prospects Garcia and Reyes.
There are many potential young guns to sort through, which is why going with Giradi (who won a NL Manager of the Year largelly for his work with yoiung pitchers in Florida) made so much sense.
“Chamberlain pitching 6 or 7 innings would be more valuable..”
i disagree, matt_saiki (may i call you matt_saiki?).. look at how many games Pettitte’s efforts were wasted in the first half of 2007 because of a weak/unreliable bullpen..
even if Johan Santana were in pinstripes, his efforts could mean nothing if the bridge to Mo gives it up
like i mentioned before, folks are waaay underestimating the importance of a true lights-out setup man (like Joba and Flash Gordon before)
Just checked. I’m right, here are all the farm lefties including the unsigned Villone:
Arias
Coke
DeLaRosa
Dennehy
Dunn
Foard
Henn
Igawa
Kozlowski
Kroenke
Manning
Patterson(Garrett)
Reyes
Soto
Thomas
Thomson
Villone
Wright
Scott Patterson is right handed.
Just think, if the Yanks had Bill Parcells as G.M., this Santana **** would have been over long ago, and we would have nothing to talk about. I’d say, “too bad he can’t come to the Yanks”, but he’ll be busy with my other team, the Phins, he’s already cut loose some dead wood from the team by firing Cameron and Mueller, Go Parcells!!! The Phins will rise again!!!!!
levelboss, you can call me matt if you want. With the lack of talent in the Yanks bullpen this year that could very easily happen again whether Chamberlain is in the pen or not which could mean he won’t be as valuable if the rest of the pen blows a game before it gets to him.
And the Bosox farm is loaded with leftys. Hey could we get another trade in the same vein as Lyle for Cator? Not likely. And they’re trying to get rid of Lopez. He was effective last year, against right handed batters.
Matt Myers didn’t exactly pan out as a “lefty relief specialist” last year.
Anyone has got to be better at bullpen management than “burn them out” Torre, who I’d been booing for 12 years. Girardi may even be great at spreading the work around and not grinding the bullpeb down to ineffectiveness.
Why were there the “Joba Rules” last year? To protect him from Torre “burn out.”
matt, you know one of the reasons why Boston dominated in the first half of 2007 imo? Okajima. he bridged everybody to Papelbon.. Boston’s hitting wasn’t that spectacular (Ortiz and Manny were mostly in slumps at that time).. it was that solid middle by Okajima.. those low margin wins added up to a 2-game difference for the AL East title
unless Humberto Sanchez throws accurate flames at Spring Training, then i’d still want Joba in as setup man
The key Okajima role for BoSox makes me ill. He wanted to come to the Yanks. His former teammate Matsui recommended him. The Yanks ignored him and made no effort for this FA.
I don’t think Sanchez is even going to pitch in Spring, wasn’t he projected to pitch closer to mid-season?
Good point wholohan. Rehabbing trio of Sanchez, Cox and Melancon are better second half possibilities.
Early season better potential bullpen young guns to watch for are Albeadejo, Ohlendorf, Patterson, Ramerez and/or Veras.
ESPN reported recently that while Yanks project Joba, who is only 22, as a Starter, he may be used in relief for part of the season to help limit his innings. Yanks responded, well not from start od season.
I still think out of the all the options not named Joba we can catch lightning in a bottle during spring. Hawkins will fit nicely in the void left by Viz. Bruney to me is worthless, he had a good ’06 but his ’05 and ’04 numbers with Arizona arent good. I don’t see much out of Veras, but he ended the season vs. Tampa with a good apperance. I like Edwar, I mean whats not to like about a 6’3″ 150 dude who wears goofier glasses than Gagne, plus he has a good change up. He got rocked last year but he’s my bounce-back pick. Chris Britten, although a righty had a 1.18 BAA vs. lefties and pitched well at home. If he were able to loose some weight he could be effictive i believe. Karstens has had a good off season so I’m excited to see how he proves in the spring. Ohlendorf pitched well in September, and was tossed into a playoff situation after a short stint in the bigs, hes not Joba and he buckeled. Give him another year and he will be like Wang out of the bullpen with his sinker. And finally we all know what Albaladejo’s stats look like from last year, and what’s not to like from a Broxton-like reliever? The bullpen could shape up ok without Joba this year, but we could really use one more solid pitcher, but there’s not much on the market.
wholo, I agree with most of what you said, with one caveat regarding Ohlendorf.
In print version of Baseball America Yanks Top Prospect listing, with he at 9, and on line 1/7 BA notes: “A sinker-slider pitcher who relied on groundouts as a starter, Ohlendorf became a power pitcher as a reliever. His fastball jumped at least a grade, sitting at 94 mph and topped oit at 97 with excellent sink. [I noted this also last Sept and was astonished.] His slider also jumped a grade, adding velocity and depth when thrown in the mid-80′s. He seemed to think less and just let his pitches go out of the bullpen, and that suited him.
“Ohlendorf could be the sinkerballing setup man the Yankees haven’t had since Jeff Nelson’s departure as a free agent in 2000. A big league relief job is his to loss come spring training.”
Let us hope that Baseball America is right about Ohlendorf.
Good info and it’s tough to argue with Baseball America.
For the record, the Baseball America 2008 Top Ten Yanks prospects (with Wang, Cano, Cabrera and Hughes being the under 30′s who have graduated beyond being officially “prospects”) are:
1 Chamberlain, rhp
2 Jackson, of
3 Tabata, of
4 Kennedy, rhp
5 Horne, rhp
6 Montero, c (1b-dh)
7 Marquez, rhp
8 Garner, of
9 Ohlendorf, rhp
10 Brackman, rhp
Note re OF, that there is one year left on Abreu’s contract and two years left on Damon and Matsui’s. Either Matsui or Abreu may hang around as DH.
Barring a disasterous trade (or positive FA alts), of of future is likely to be Cabrera, Jackson and Tabata (with Gardner as # 4).
Sanchez has been doing some throwing already, I’m not sure but he mmight be ready by Spring Training.
I’m pretty sure Sanchez is throwing, but its flat-ground only for now. We’ll most likely see him in July, as he will be getting some AAA innings to get back on his feet.
probably right.
Ybbalep, Sanchez in July. Also maybe Cox and Melancon then.
Ohlendorf, Veras, Ramierz, Albadejo, Patterson, Horne in spring.
Maybe Henn, Igwawa, Bruney, Britton, White, Wright, Karstans? Evenm maybe Rasner, DeSalvo (off 40 Man but maybe back)
Let us do the math.
Opening Day Bullpen is likely to be Mo, Farnsworth, Hawkins plus 3 or 4 (depending on how many of six projected major league Starters are healthy and on 25 man Roster. Look at last season injuries out of Spring Training! Pavano on Opening Day?!? Kennedy could start year in AAA? NB Kennedy with under 2.00 ERA was Minor League Baseball, MiLB.com “Pitcher of Year”
Have the whole limit innings thing for 3 young SPs plus Moose. Query – when all healthy a modified six man rotation, with Wang and Pettite with only 2 over 150 innings?
BP beyond, Mo, F and H? Ohledorf, Veras and/or Albaladjo 2 of 3, plus flyer on a lefty (Henn, Igawa or Wright)?
Add, just maybe, depending on spring into early season mix: Bruney, Britton, Karstens, Whelan, White.
Later in season, agree with earlier post that McCutchen is a sleeper.
I’m glad someone else agrees with me about McCutchen. If he starts the year in AAA, I think he’s be a great option to try out the pen if something doesn’t work out. He hasn’t put up a single season over a 3 ERA yet, so we’ll see.
Brian Cashman, for whatever critiques, has properly understood that stockpiling young power arms is key. since he got control.
Look at recent success of Angels, Marlins, Tigers.
“You can neber have enough pitching”
Yanks’ offense is set, locked in (but for need to replace aging, retiring outfielders). Plus my dream to add in 2009 FA switch hitting, power/avg, gold glover Teixeria.
Most fun next few seasons will be sorting through all the arms Cash has assembled. Let it happen.
Beyond Wang having most wins in MLB with 38 past 2 years. Pettitte winning 15 (despite blown BP lossses), Hughes, Chamberlain, Sanchez, Brackman and Betances all project as “potential” # 1′s.
And, again, post All-Star break in 2007, Santana was 5-7 in 15 starts, with ERA over 4.00, on contrast with lights out 2004-06 second half, in 15 -13 year. Pettitte also won 15 in 2007. Of healthy in 2007, so will Hughes, Joba and Kennedy.
Still “thinking about a trade” HankBrenner?!? BoSox would never pay Joham twice Beckett. Mutts don’t have enough to trade.
Let it GO. Johan as Twink for 2008, and then maybe if maybe, overpay ONCE on CONTRACT, not TWICE plus KIDS as 2009 FA, IF swcond half Johan 2007 was not real “red flag.”
End the mouth diharea Hank, Phil and Melky are long termj Yankees foundations. Period, end of speculation.
Count down to Pitche3rs and Catchers, and Giradi et al sorting out Cash’s young guns.
levelboss,
I’m not disagreeing with about the pen, and needing a pitcher like Chamberlain to bridge that gap between starter, and closer. On the contrary, I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I just don’t think Chamberlain will or should be that guy. He just has too much talent, and ability. The Yanks should take advantage of his talent, and maximize his value by using him as a starting pitcher.
Chamberlain was brilliant out of the Pen last year, but as a potential #1, “Yanks Josh Beckett,” Cy Young Candidate even more valuable; thus,l the one “untouchable.”
Longevity, proving many innings worthy is the major question, as with so many young pitchers. (Cf, Prior, Wood, Dontelle Willits (sp?), Santana??? (cf pst All Star 2007).
That’s why “You can never have enough piyching.” It is fragile/
Matt, i also would like to see Joba as a starter (and i think he’d do quite well); i just have concerns over the relief bridge which has been plaguing the Bombers since Flash Gordon left.. it used to be that innings 8 and 9 were automatic
having seen Pettitte lose several games in 2007 in which he pitched stellarly is frustrating.. and also affected the outcome of the season – many 1-run games were lost in the first-half due simply to a weak bullpen – those 1-run losses added up, and the Yankees lost the AL East by only a 2 game deficit
until the Yankees get another lights-out setup man (hopefully Sanchez eventually) then imho i’d still use Joba as a setup man
tigernyc, even as well as Beckett pitched last year, he STILL needed Okajima to bridge to Papelbon.. people don’t seem to realize the importance of Okajima to Boston and Joba to New York as setup men
Okjima wanted to be and should habe been a Yankee. Matsui pushed for him.
Instead we got Igawa.
Also, level, read my qoutes above from Baseball America re Ohlendorf potentially being the “next Jeff Nelson”
if that’s true about Matsui pushing for Okajima, then it really is a shame.. imagine having Okajima as setup guy for the whole year? i think the Yankees could have taken the AL East (and maybe more)
(on the other hand, however, maybe Joba wouldn’t have been called up? i have a feeling though that Okajima will be quite hittable in 2008 while Joba will be continue to shine big time in 2008)
i read some of your post already.. i liked the way Ohlendorf pitched last year (at least most of the time anyway).. i think he’s hungry enough and skilled enough to be a solid reliever
Gotta love the Princeton guys that former Yank Catcher who was Manager (help me recall name at Midnight). Other was Chris Young, 6’10″ SD SP.
* developed.
Scott Bradley?
I think Edwar Ramirez will be a key guy in the bullpen. His problem last year was that he walked too many batters. When he did throw strikes, noone could hit him – his change up is one of the best in the game.
Here are the top 10 pitchers last year in K/9inn with more that 20inn pitched:
1 Edwar Ramirez 13.29
2 Jonathan Papelbon 12.96
3 Joba Chamberlain 12.75
4 Francisco Rodriguez 12.03
5 Octavio Dotel 11.35
6 Huston Street 11.34
7 Grant Balfour 11.05
8 George Sherrill 11.04
9 Erik Bedard 10.93
10 Jensen Lewis 10.43
If you include everyone with less than 20inn, then Ramirez is 3rd, Ohlendorf is 5, and Joba is 6.
Interesting. Thanks, did not know that.
I’ve been big on Edwar since he got called up, that change up is a mastry of a lost art in baseball. Everybody who is a reliever now-a-days tosses fastball and a slider period. It’s nice to see a change up pitcher have some success. Plus he’s hysterical to look at on the mound. I also was pumped to see Ohlendorf on the playoff roster, didn’t help much but all the experience he can get the better. Again a switch of FB/Slider with his power sinker. He was a starter so the change might not have been as easy for him as it was for Joba, I mean Joba is a beast. I think the BP is OK, right now, it may be one arm short but we’re not the only BP that will be in that situation. Also Girardi will be better than Torre with spreading the workload of the BP and Eiland has experience with many of these young pitchers coming from our AAA affiliate. That was the best add we’ll have all year IMO, no offense to Gator.
Agreed with Eiland. He’s gonna be great for working with all these young guns.
I like Edwar as well, I just hope he can find some consistency. If he does, he’s going to be dirty, throwing that beautiful change up to relieve a flamethrower like Joba.
Edwar??? Are you serious? OMG! You would run this team in the ground so fast. He was let go by the Angels Twice for a reason. Maybe his change-up helps him, but he is a disaster mentally. With his weak other pitches, hitters were sitting on the change and destroying him. He won’t make it in NY, can’t take the pressure.. Look how many times he folded under pressure.
Edwar will be lucky to get past spring training this year…
Amazing, after reading what I read here I often ask myself how many games you watched last year.. clearly you weren’t watching the same games as me.
Hughes for Santana is a no brainer…
Mark my words.. even if the kids are lights out for the first half of the season.. none of them have pitched enough innings to last the year..
You can look forward to see what happened to Wang.. he got tired and so will the kids…
Do your reasearch and see the max innings Joba,Ian, and Phil have pitched in the year..
It’s not enough to get us thru.
If my rotation was a choice between..
Santana, Joba, Ian .. or
Hughes, Joba, Ian …
GIve me a break… if your not going with Santana.. people keep using the 3 kids vs one Johan.. it does not break down that way
2 kids +1 Johan or 3 kids = no brainer!!
let’s for the sake of the argument say Hughes is equal to Johan..
Your not going to get even close to the innings that Johan can pitch with Phil..
If the trade does not happen, you guys will all cry foul and change your opinion.. like you always do when your wrong..
If you can get Johan you *GET* johan, Hank knows this..
Stop letting your emotions dictate your team… you are probably the same people that would want Tanner from The Bad News Bears.. just because he was a “cute kid”…
The reason this trade isn’t a good idea isn’t about this year, most of us wouldn’t argue that Johan will have a better year than Hughes, but stranger things have happened, but that in the long run Hughes has the potential to be a right handed Santana. He’s young and very good already, so lets say we give this year up to a rebuilding year for our pitchers and let them get theirn feet we, we’ll still be competitive and in 2009 all our young talent will have had a full year of exposure. Furthermore, Boston is not going to get their deal done, so we can take a crack at Santana, or Sabthia on free agent market. We’re still the Yankees and we can still afford top pay anyone anything if we choose to. I don’t like giving up 2/3 of our future OF in the deal, I hate having to trade to make a team complete lets farm our team like we’re supposed to. And last is the trade does not happen there will be no tearshed from me, I’m going to enjoy watching the Big Three dominate Boston if not this season very soon. This is a new era of the Yankees, it’s coming slowly, old habbits die hard, but we’re hanging onto good young tallent and its about d@mn time. Aren’t you sick of watching our youngsters develop in another program? It’s like the Dolphins (no offense to Phins fans, I was pulling for them too) they have great wide recievers, they just play for other teams now, lest not watch the Yankees travel down the same road.
And on Edwar I watched plenty of games, his first game he struck out the side in Mini late in the game. He has some issues, but I picked him to be a bounce-back. I think he has potential, it doesn’t mean that he will do well, just like it doesn’t mean Santana or Hughes will have a good year. He does have to better his other pitches, but Eiland can help him, and that’s why we have an off season. When do you think he learned that nasty change? When he was at home and realized he could be a big leaguer. He’ll have to make adjustments, but so will many of our BP pitchers. Plus I’d rather see him in the game over Farnsworthless.
Why the heck should the Yanks trade their future away for players like Santana when they guarantee nothing? Yeah, so he has more experience, and more innings pitched than the youngsters, but so what!! For crying out loud, lets drop the “win now” attitudes!!!! Like I said he guarantees nothing. None of you guys who are in favor of this deal seem to have any answers when it comes to injury issues. Just because he has never been injured mean that he can’t or won’t be injured!! His injury would just add on to the holes the Yanks already have on this team.If that does happen I can see all of you who are in favor of this deal crying, and ******** about this team. Yeah, that’s real smart!!!! I agree with wholohan, this is a new era where the Yanks do finally start hanging on to its homegrown talent. I also agree with Matt, this team has a chance to build another dynasty if it keeps its own talent.
Also we are looking at having three of the most dominant pitchers in the AL possibly. We all saw what Joba can do and Hughes was rated higher than Joba was in the minors. Without the injury that set Phil back he had a real shot at thowing a no hitter before Bucholtz threw his and having a break out season. Furthermore Kennedy has begun to prove he is valuable major league tallent. There’s a reason teams were asking about Hughes since we drafted him and even in the “win now” Yankee era we held on to him. There’s a reason these three are caled “The Big Three.” Let Boston think they have a rotation set now when the only true mainstays are Beckett and Bucholtz (I dont count Dice-K because he’s a #5 pitcher if he were not a $100 million Japanese supposed pitching god). The Boston rotation is good now, it’s not great and in a year maybe two 2/5 of that rotation will be gone. Ours will have 4/5 catching thier stride and being dominant. Think of it
1) Wang: the winningist pitcher in baseball over the last 2 years and young
2) Hughes: (Top prospect in all of baseball pitching or not)
3) Joba (ESPN’s Whose Next Winner and absolute flame thrower)
4) Kennedy (Crafty Moose-like pitcher who has gotten it done in limited exposure last year and hopefull will succeed this year)
5) ??? Pettite (I’m OK with that) or go out and get Santana or Sabathia off the FA market.
I have nothing against Santana (all the anti-Santana posts that have been posted all say the same thing and that can mostly be atributed to a horrific offense. He’s got real-deal stuff, but so does our Big Three.) We’re still the Yankees we’ll still pay people ungodly amunts of money but lets be smart about it, give up 1 or 2 of the Big Three and pay through the @$$ or pay theough the @$$ next year and make d@mn sure we get him next off season without giving up any of the Big Three? That is a true no brainer IMO.